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	<title>Comments on: Bad Decisions Were Ours</title>
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	<link>http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/</link>
	<description>Vitaliy Katsenelson blog on the economy, stock market, and stocks.  Applying Active Value Investing approach.</description>
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		<title>By: Vitaliy</title>
		<link>http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/comment-page-1/#comment-72931</link>
		<dc:creator>Vitaliy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 01:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/#comment-72931</guid>
		<description>Sure. A great example would the the social &quot;benefits&quot; in Western Europe. If you lose a job, government offers very comfy unemployement benefits which creates great dis-incentives for you to look for a job. This leads to higher unemployment, higher taxes, slower growing economies etc....Â  This time around government intervention will cause a change in our behavior.Â  Homeowners will sick a lot more risk in the future as they&#039;ll believ the government will bail them out in the future.

Best,

Vitaliy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure. A great example would the the social &#8220;benefits&#8221; in Western Europe. If you lose a job, government offers very comfy unemployement benefits which creates great dis-incentives for you to look for a job. This leads to higher unemployment, higher taxes, slower growing economies etc&#8230;.Â  This time around government intervention will cause a change in our behavior.Â  Homeowners will sick a lot more risk in the future as they&#8217;ll believ the government will bail them out in the future.</p>
<p>Best,</p>
<p>Vitaliy</p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/comment-page-1/#comment-72911</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 22:37:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/#comment-72911</guid>
		<description>In the article &quot;bad decisions were ours&quot; the comment is made: &quot;The largest cost of a government bailout is the one that is not apparent at first - the moral hazard. In a free economy, incentives are set up in a way so that decisions made in our best interest also benefit society,or the system as a whole. Introduce moral hazard into the equation and individual decisions can benefit participants but hurt the system. The unintended consequence of a government bailout could be catastrophic.&quot; I hear this often but do not recognize it often. Are the some examples out there that you can refer to? Subsidies to Farmers are bad but are they a moral issue? I seem to be missing something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the article &#8220;bad decisions were ours&#8221; the comment is made: &#8220;The largest cost of a government bailout is the one that is not apparent at first &#8211; the moral hazard. In a free economy, incentives are set up in a way so that decisions made in our best interest also benefit society,or the system as a whole. Introduce moral hazard into the equation and individual decisions can benefit participants but hurt the system. The unintended consequence of a government bailout could be catastrophic.&#8221; I hear this often but do not recognize it often. Are the some examples out there that you can refer to? Subsidies to Farmers are bad but are they a moral issue? I seem to be missing something.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Sandison</title>
		<link>http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/comment-page-1/#comment-72484</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Sandison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 10:20:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/#comment-72484</guid>
		<description>Interesting article and many valid points by others that want to take the concept of moral hazard into a much wider realm.

In all this sub-prime cesspool, there is one category I would like to see in jail. Those salesmen who approached poor people on a $2000 a month pension and sold them a mortgage with a 1% interest rate (for 1 day) and then wrote up the income of these poor people as $8 900 a month. These salemen and women KNEW were selling these poor people a mortgage that they would never be able to repay. Their bosses knew it and encouraged it.

Then while these poor clients began defaulting on their mortgages the nominal income record on the mortgage forms ensured that the false security in these securities remained hidden.  Their bosses wanted to get rid of these failing mortgages so they were quickly re-packaged as securities sold the world over qhile in fact they were worthless. The world is now paying in loss and hardship for the actions of these &#039;salesmen&#039; and &#039;saleswomen&#039;.
 
Oh, pundits of the financial and legal world, please tell me: Does this crisis not have its origin in fraud, and why are the fraudsters not in jail?

Unless someone can prove to me that it is not fraud, and especially if the government is you and I as several writers have claimed and yet nothing has been to jail these fraudsters, then I have nothing against the government helping the poor people who were mis-sold those mortgages. These were the people who were most disadvantaged, these were the people who were screwed first and worst. Most of them have been turned from poor but surviving honest citizens into homeless people, chased by debt and in risk of jail for the rest of their lives. 

Then how is it that all the great educated banking and finance staff in the world bought these &#039;securities&#039; without checking? Is time and a fast buck and another car so important to this category that they didn&#039;t do the basic checks? If Goldman Sachs did their homework and studiously avoided these securities, why didn&#039;t the others? Was it because the others were involved in the fraudlent mis-selling in the first place?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting article and many valid points by others that want to take the concept of moral hazard into a much wider realm.</p>
<p>In all this sub-prime cesspool, there is one category I would like to see in jail. Those salesmen who approached poor people on a $2000 a month pension and sold them a mortgage with a 1% interest rate (for 1 day) and then wrote up the income of these poor people as $8 900 a month. These salemen and women KNEW were selling these poor people a mortgage that they would never be able to repay. Their bosses knew it and encouraged it.</p>
<p>Then while these poor clients began defaulting on their mortgages the nominal income record on the mortgage forms ensured that the false security in these securities remained hidden.  Their bosses wanted to get rid of these failing mortgages so they were quickly re-packaged as securities sold the world over qhile in fact they were worthless. The world is now paying in loss and hardship for the actions of these &#8216;salesmen&#8217; and &#8216;saleswomen&#8217;.</p>
<p>Oh, pundits of the financial and legal world, please tell me: Does this crisis not have its origin in fraud, and why are the fraudsters not in jail?</p>
<p>Unless someone can prove to me that it is not fraud, and especially if the government is you and I as several writers have claimed and yet nothing has been to jail these fraudsters, then I have nothing against the government helping the poor people who were mis-sold those mortgages. These were the people who were most disadvantaged, these were the people who were screwed first and worst. Most of them have been turned from poor but surviving honest citizens into homeless people, chased by debt and in risk of jail for the rest of their lives. </p>
<p>Then how is it that all the great educated banking and finance staff in the world bought these &#8216;securities&#8217; without checking? Is time and a fast buck and another car so important to this category that they didn&#8217;t do the basic checks? If Goldman Sachs did their homework and studiously avoided these securities, why didn&#8217;t the others? Was it because the others were involved in the fraudlent mis-selling in the first place?</p>
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		<title>By: Neil Elkins</title>
		<link>http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/comment-page-1/#comment-29049</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil Elkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/#comment-29049</guid>
		<description>I share #6&#039;s thought exactly.  I would only add that we just bailed out the New York Stock Exchange last week with a 1/2 point interest cut.  When is the corporate class going to pay for their mistakes?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I share #6&#8242;s thought exactly.  I would only add that we just bailed out the New York Stock Exchange last week with a 1/2 point interest cut.  When is the corporate class going to pay for their mistakes?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/comment-page-1/#comment-28915</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:19:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/#comment-28915</guid>
		<description>Great Article. Right on the money.  You could have also mentioned how much money many of the homeowners made by flipping houses or equity stripping thru continuous refi&#039;s.  They rolled the dice and won. The people that are losing are the people that got into the game too late or kept pushing their luck.  
All investments have risks and the investor should deal with the loss and not be bailed out with my tax dollars.  

When people went into 2 yr ARMS they were betting that home prices would continue to appreciate, they were wrong and they lost.

The government is now all about setting up tighter lending standards.  Bad idea. The cow has already left the barn and the tighter lending standards that have been put in place by the lenders are resulting in foreclosures going up because people can&#039;t refi out of their short term ARMS.  
Wall Street, the lenders and homeowners all made millions over the last 5 years and now we need to let the cycle takes it course and let the chips fall where they may.  
So what if somebody gets foreclosed on, it is not like they can&#039;t go rent a home to live in. They are not going to be living on the street.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great Article. Right on the money.  You could have also mentioned how much money many of the homeowners made by flipping houses or equity stripping thru continuous refi&#8217;s.  They rolled the dice and won. The people that are losing are the people that got into the game too late or kept pushing their luck.<br />
All investments have risks and the investor should deal with the loss and not be bailed out with my tax dollars.  </p>
<p>When people went into 2 yr ARMS they were betting that home prices would continue to appreciate, they were wrong and they lost.</p>
<p>The government is now all about setting up tighter lending standards.  Bad idea. The cow has already left the barn and the tighter lending standards that have been put in place by the lenders are resulting in foreclosures going up because people can&#8217;t refi out of their short term ARMS.<br />
Wall Street, the lenders and homeowners all made millions over the last 5 years and now we need to let the cycle takes it course and let the chips fall where they may.<br />
So what if somebody gets foreclosed on, it is not like they can&#8217;t go rent a home to live in. They are not going to be living on the street.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Rasp</title>
		<link>http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/comment-page-1/#comment-28850</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Rasp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 21:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/#comment-28850</guid>
		<description>Vitaliy;

I understand the thought behind not bailing all people out and how logical the thought process is for that point.  People knew what they were getting into. People were gaming the system.  If the game doesn&#039;t work,  you pay the price... I agree completely.  

HOWEVER,  if that is the case, then it needs to be a standard held to all cases, all situation, all social-economic levels, public, private, corporate.  And, quite simply, it is not.  We forgive/forget the executives in the option dating scandals.  We allow businesses, but not John Q Public to walk away from financial woe via bankruptcy.  We bail out those involved in the S&amp;L crisis.  Oh, we bailed out the airlines multiple times.

Frankly we actively damn John Q Public for being dumb, irresponsible, gaming.  Yet the same high risk activities when taken by executives, entrepreneurs, money managers are forgiven, viewed upon as strengths (having vision, maximizing alpha,  maximizing a loophole)  This is what I find amazing.  It really should be flip flopped because the latter is much more educated on what they&#039;re doing than the average home buyer.  

I simply do not think that we can take your position on the home buyers without seriously examining our values elsewhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vitaliy;</p>
<p>I understand the thought behind not bailing all people out and how logical the thought process is for that point.  People knew what they were getting into. People were gaming the system.  If the game doesn&#8217;t work,  you pay the price&#8230; I agree completely.  </p>
<p>HOWEVER,  if that is the case, then it needs to be a standard held to all cases, all situation, all social-economic levels, public, private, corporate.  And, quite simply, it is not.  We forgive/forget the executives in the option dating scandals.  We allow businesses, but not John Q Public to walk away from financial woe via bankruptcy.  We bail out those involved in the S&amp;L crisis.  Oh, we bailed out the airlines multiple times.</p>
<p>Frankly we actively damn John Q Public for being dumb, irresponsible, gaming.  Yet the same high risk activities when taken by executives, entrepreneurs, money managers are forgiven, viewed upon as strengths (having vision, maximizing alpha,  maximizing a loophole)  This is what I find amazing.  It really should be flip flopped because the latter is much more educated on what they&#8217;re doing than the average home buyer.  </p>
<p>I simply do not think that we can take your position on the home buyers without seriously examining our values elsewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/comment-page-1/#comment-28755</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:42:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/#comment-28755</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a bit oversimplified.  There are certainly many homebuyers and speculators who did the math, knew full well the risks, and were able to understand the contracts.  Yet they were surely sent many signals; however -- from the President to Greenspan to the financial press -- that they were not in fact taking a risk.  The President said so in exactly that many words.  Nevertheless, they have a college education and they signed the contract.

It took every bit of will in my body to not sign onto a mortgage I cannot afford, while all my friends and neighbors did.  I am not yet convinced that I didn&#039;t make a mistake, as the house prices have left me behind and I may never catch up.  Currently, with a 50 bp easing, I am still the one looking like a fool.

There is another segment though, the desperate and the marginalized.  These people were not so well informed or able to navigate our complex personal economy and its promoters.  To them, the pressures were felt more deeply, the dangling of easy credit like setting a drink in front of an alcoholic.  Sure, they too signed a contract.  Laws may not have been broken, perhaps, but the tactics and opaqueness and pressure may not be something many mortgage brokers will brag about to their mothers.  Let&#039;s face it, there is a segment of our society that is exploited for their ignorance and lack of spophistication and desperateness.  We can hide behind the signing of contracts, but I would not bank on that getting me into heaven.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a bit oversimplified.  There are certainly many homebuyers and speculators who did the math, knew full well the risks, and were able to understand the contracts.  Yet they were surely sent many signals; however &#8212; from the President to Greenspan to the financial press &#8212; that they were not in fact taking a risk.  The President said so in exactly that many words.  Nevertheless, they have a college education and they signed the contract.</p>
<p>It took every bit of will in my body to not sign onto a mortgage I cannot afford, while all my friends and neighbors did.  I am not yet convinced that I didn&#8217;t make a mistake, as the house prices have left me behind and I may never catch up.  Currently, with a 50 bp easing, I am still the one looking like a fool.</p>
<p>There is another segment though, the desperate and the marginalized.  These people were not so well informed or able to navigate our complex personal economy and its promoters.  To them, the pressures were felt more deeply, the dangling of easy credit like setting a drink in front of an alcoholic.  Sure, they too signed a contract.  Laws may not have been broken, perhaps, but the tactics and opaqueness and pressure may not be something many mortgage brokers will brag about to their mothers.  Let&#8217;s face it, there is a segment of our society that is exploited for their ignorance and lack of spophistication and desperateness.  We can hide behind the signing of contracts, but I would not bank on that getting me into heaven.</p>
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		<title>By: Marianne Petrashko</title>
		<link>http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/comment-page-1/#comment-28752</link>
		<dc:creator>Marianne Petrashko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/#comment-28752</guid>
		<description>Thank you for writing an article that expresses views similar to my own. My family and I moved to California from Europe in 2003 and decided to wait out the mania in the market in Southern California and rent (almost a dirty word here). We did so while watching everyone spend recklessly. No prudence whatsoever. To make matters worse, the only conversation around the dinner table was about the current value of one&#039;s house (living London was even worse). Boring to say the least. 
Hopefully the market will return to levels that are affordable on standard lending terms. Work hard, save your money and eventually your get your slice of the dream.
Thanks again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for writing an article that expresses views similar to my own. My family and I moved to California from Europe in 2003 and decided to wait out the mania in the market in Southern California and rent (almost a dirty word here). We did so while watching everyone spend recklessly. No prudence whatsoever. To make matters worse, the only conversation around the dinner table was about the current value of one&#8217;s house (living London was even worse). Boring to say the least.<br />
Hopefully the market will return to levels that are affordable on standard lending terms. Work hard, save your money and eventually your get your slice of the dream.<br />
Thanks again.</p>
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		<title>By: TheGuru</title>
		<link>http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/comment-page-1/#comment-28739</link>
		<dc:creator>TheGuru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 17:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/#comment-28739</guid>
		<description>Thank you -- You basically wrote what is in my head.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you &#8212; You basically wrote what is in my head.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Neer</title>
		<link>http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/comment-page-1/#comment-28732</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Neer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:43:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/#comment-28732</guid>
		<description>Terrific, concise, and effective article.  I wish your viewpoint was accepted by those who should know better.  

Keet up the good work.

With appreciation,
Charley Neer</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Terrific, concise, and effective article.  I wish your viewpoint was accepted by those who should know better.  </p>
<p>Keet up the good work.</p>
<p>With appreciation,<br />
Charley Neer</p>
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		<title>By: bob bunting</title>
		<link>http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/comment-page-1/#comment-28546</link>
		<dc:creator>bob bunting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Sep 2007 16:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ContrarianEdge.com/2007/09/15/bad-decisions-were-ours/#comment-28546</guid>
		<description>US Government to the rescue has been in force for years. Just think of all the government pork and social programs that have run amuck and now are a huge unfunded liability. Thing of rebuilding New Orleans, a colossal waste of money given that the city is below sea level and nothing we can do will save it from the Global Warming now in progress. Think of the airline bail outs. the savings and loans, the American farmer â€¦ I could go on.
I am for a bail out of some kind because the unintended consequences could impact the very economy that has provided the credit for all of the above. A recession will be far more hurtful to everyone then sending Uncle Sam in to save the day.
Perhaps we need better care in spending money in the first place. Given our system it will take a catastrophe of some kind to change that. I, for one, donâ€™t think it will happen for some time so we will continue to muddle thorough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>US Government to the rescue has been in force for years. Just think of all the government pork and social programs that have run amuck and now are a huge unfunded liability. Thing of rebuilding New Orleans, a colossal waste of money given that the city is below sea level and nothing we can do will save it from the Global Warming now in progress. Think of the airline bail outs. the savings and loans, the American farmer â€¦ I could go on.<br />
I am for a bail out of some kind because the unintended consequences could impact the very economy that has provided the credit for all of the above. A recession will be far more hurtful to everyone then sending Uncle Sam in to save the day.<br />
Perhaps we need better care in spending money in the first place. Given our system it will take a catastrophe of some kind to change that. I, for one, donâ€™t think it will happen for some time so we will continue to muddle thorough.</p>
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